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timPLEZdrown527

Charles Williams
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Rememberance

Wallpaper Other 51 comments

Score 50.0%
Dec 02 2003
"Tim, can you cite references for your claims? References not from some christian fundie propaganda site?"

Of course he can not cite any historical references, nor can anyone else who believes as he does. Ask them why in Daniel 5:1-2, Daniel claims King Belshazzar as the son of Nebuchadnezzar. Yet, the facts of history, as dug up in the archeological record, prove that not only was Belshazzar never a king, but his father was named Nabonidos, not Nebuchadnezzar. But if you press people like this for facts, you will not EVER actually be given any facts, nor any sensible explanation as to how Daniel, and the rest of the Bible, got so many facts completely wrong.

Ask them how they can follow a God, who claims to be just and moral, after he tells the Hebrews:

As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are round about you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their families that are with you, who have been born in your land; and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you, to inherit as a possession for ever; you may make slaves of them, but over your brethren the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another, with harshness. Leviticus 25:44-46

The only thing these proselytizers will tell you is that slaves back then were not really slaves. No, really, they just called it slavery just to call it that. That was not what it really was. Even though you could buy people who become your property, it really was not slavery. Even though you could bequeth your property, I mean slaves, to your sons, it reall was not slavery.

Exodus 21:20-21, lets us know that this explanation, "It really was not slavery," is totally bogus:

"When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished.But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be punished; for the slave is his money."

So we see here, it was totally legal, under the god this guy worships, to KILL ANOTHER MAN and not be punished! See, slavery really was slavery! Slave owners held the power of life and death in their hands, all accordingto this god's
will. But really, it wasn't slavery, to hear the proselytizers tell it.

Further, you can press believers of this particular myth to explain why, if Herod slaughtered all male children under the age of 2, in order to kill Jesus, why is there NO RECORD OF IT ANYWHERE in the historical record? Don't you think if all male children under age 2 were slaughtered in ANY nation, people would record such a tragedy? Of course they would, yet for this little fairy tale, no such evidence exists! I have put this question to this TimBrown person 3 times already. Do you think he has bothered to answer the question? Of course not!

To go even one step further, ask them why the nativity scene is painted in 4 scenes, in the temple of Luxor and these painting have been there since 1538 BC. Admittedly, the names in this nativity scene are different, as it has the virgin mother Isis, the baby Horus and Anup is the Holy Ghost who impregnates the virgin mother Isis. But if these tales of Jesus are so obviously true, then why were the Egyptians telling the same tall tales, complete with a nativity scene & 3 magi, over 1500 years before the alleged birth of Christ? Once you have posed this question to the proselytizers you will greatly enjoy the peace and queit you will experience, as they fall completely silent.

And this is why we must press these proselytizers for facts and evidence. It is only then that they will finally shut up with these outrageous claims for which they have no evidence whatsoever.
- Nov 25 2003
Fellowship of the Unashamed

Wallpaper Other 83 comments

Score 50.0%
Nov 20 2003
"I so often hear of scientists who say that a denial of the theory of evolution is 'absurd."

That's because a denial of the theory of evolution is absurd. The mountain of evidence supporting evolution can not be overturned and underpins the majority of the sciences, including biology & geology, whereas the only evidence for supporting creationism is a book of fable that claims snakes and donkeys speak:

1. Numbers 21:28 "And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times? "

2. Genesis 3:1 "Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"

And what is the definition of the word
fable? According to Merriam-Websters it is as follows:

"a narration intended to enforce a useful truth; especially : ONE IN WHICH ANIMALS SPEAK AND ACT LIKE HUMAN BEINGS"

So yes, any scientist who believes creationism is absurd, by definition, and are denying well over a century of collected evidence which supports the theory of evolution. Think about it, if a scientist denied the theory of gravity, is that absurd? Of course it is. If a scientist denies the theory of electricity is that absurd? Of course it is. It is even moreso absurd when you realize the entire basis for their denial of these theories is based entirely on a book of fable, that totally destroys the facts of history left and right, as when Daniel errs in the succession of Persian kings.

No one here has yet to offer any evidence that Jesus ever even existed. I mean he was this great miracle worker, so where is the evidence for his existence in the archeological record? There should be MUCH evidence in the archeological record for his existence, given the miraculous things he did, yet such evidence does not exist, in the same way it does not exist for Buddha feeding a multitude of people with a basket of cakes. Further, you claim, "But the majority of historians are not denying the existance of Jesus, or Mohammad, or Buddha."

Where? Who? What are their names? Do you have a study to support this? No, I didn't think so. You can not change the fact that the ancient historians did not investigate the gossip that they heard, they simply wrote the gossip down as true. But I forget, you know more than the scholars who have actually investigated the claims of the ancient historians and found them to lack credibility. - Nov 21 2003
"Since that is an absurd statement,"

How is it an absurd statement to claim there is no evidence that Jesus existed?

Let me show you how it is done. I make the claim Jesus never existed. Now, having made that claim, I must offer evidence to prove it. Perhaps you have heard of the scholar Bruce Metzger, who authored the book, ""The Text of the New Testament-- Its Transmission, Corruption and Restoration?" In his book, he addresses

1.Errors arising from faulty eyesight
2.Errors arising from faulty hearing
3.Errors of the mind
4.Errors of judgement
5.Clearing up historical and geographical difficulties
6.Alterations made because of doctrinal considerations

So there is one scholar who does not believe Jesus ever existed. So much for your claim that my statement is absurd.

Allow me to make another claim. The historians who recorded history at the time of Christ, had little interest in recording facts of history, some going even so far as to distort the facts of history for their own aims. Now, having made that claim, I must offer evidence to support it.

In Eusubias' book, "Ecclesiastical History," vol 8, chapter 2, he writes, "We shall introduce into this history in general only those events which may be useful first to ourselves and afterwards to posterity."
In Eusubias' "Praeparatio Evangelica," in book 12, chapter 32 he includes a chapter titled, ""How it may be Lawful and Fitting to use Falsehood as a Medicine, and for the Benefit of those who Want to be Deceived"

So please explain to me again how the statement, "Jesus never existed is absurd?." Please explain to me again why we should trust the recordings of these ancient historians.

And finally, please do explain how offering evidence to support my claims, and requiring others to offer evidence to support their claims, is a game?
I am most definitely interested in what twists of logic you will have to create to jump through this one. - Nov 21 2003
"So, I guess that all the history my professor tought me was not relevant because he wasn't an eyewitness???"

It is not I who makes the claims about Tacitus or Josephus, but those very same historians, who taught your history class. The facts of history, as we understand it today, are accepted due to evidence found in the historical record. I am sorry that you believe Tacitus used the same methods to write/investigate his history as modern day historians do, but your belief in this is quite incorrect.

"--never mind....From your previous posts, especially regarding percieved "wrongs" in the Biblical record, you appear to be so angry at God that any evidence I show you (and that you indeed have been shown here by others) will be thrown away out-of-hand."

HAHAHA! HOW WRONG YOU ARE! I would no more be mad at god than I would be mad at Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy. Why get mad at that which does not exist?

"You started by simply asking for evidence...stating I couldn't. Then when I told you that I would be happy to and asked if you would accept it, you conditioned answering that question based on non-related issues."

Incorrect, I have posed those same questions to you numerous times in this forum. Why do you keep avoiding answering them? You show up on this website making all kinds of outrageous claims, yet when someone asks you to prove them, you pretend that these questions of fact, have not been put to you. Why won't you answer questions of fact, regarding the claims you make, and provide evidence to support your claims? You state so easily how true all of these things are, yet you go out of your way to avoid offering evidence.

"In short, you will never be willing to accept anything I or others have been telling you about history, archaeology and the Bible."

I am still awaiting evidence from the archeological record which proves the slaughter of the innocents, under Herod occurred. I am still awaiting archeological evidence which proves an Egyptian pharoah died in the middle of a parted Red Sea. And you are still pretending that these questions have not been posed to you. You offer no evidence, because there is none. So why are you saying in this forum these things are true? Prove it! I am still waiting.

There are two kinds of people who make claims, those who can support their claims with factual evidence, and those who can not. Which are you?








- Nov 21 2003
"if the history of ancient Egypt is so well chronicled, where is it written who built the great pyramid. It's construction is attributed to Cheops (Khufu), but this is an educated guess. Stones found with his cartouche on them are known forgeries, and there are no hieroglyphs on the walls."

I posed no questions regarding pyramids. Read the above posts to see what questions were posed and please stick with the issue, or either state evidence, based on the archeological record, how the entire nation of Egypt, and all who lived within it, just happened to miss the fact that a Pharoah died in the middle of a parted Red Sea. Please explain how such a miraculous event was recorded nowhere and discussed by no one, and given that this is the case, how the myth it is based on, can now be considered factual. Read carefully the question that was asked, then pose your answer based on the question that was asked please.

Man, I love how these people try to avoid the subject at hand, by changing the topic. I wonder why they might do that? Seems the simplest thing to do would be the answer the question by supplying evidence, since all these claims they make are so obviously true. But once you press them on it, you find out quickly, it really is not that simple for them to prove these things are true. - Nov 21 2003
"if the history of ancient Egypt is so well chronicled, where is it written who built the great pyramid. It's construction is attributed to Cheops (Khufu), but this is an educated guess. Stones found with his cartouche on them are known forgeries, and there are no hieroglyphs on the walls."

I posed no questions regarding pyramids. Read the above posts to see what questions were posed and please stick with the issue, or either state evidence, based on the archeological record, how the entire nation of Egypt, and all who lived within it, just happened to miss the fact that a Pharoah died in the middle of a parted Red Sea. Please explain how such a miraculous event was recorded nowhere and discussed by no one, and given that this is the case, how the myth it is based on, can now be considered factual. Read carefully the question that was asked, then pose your answer based on the question that was asked please.
- Nov 21 2003
Tacitus wrote about Jesus in 110 AD.
So what is your point? He writes, many years after the fact, repeating what others were saying. He was no eyewitness, so whatever he wrote proves nothing. Same with Josephus. - Nov 21 2003
Come on timbrown527. Surely you can do better than this. You stated earlier, you believe it because it is true. I have asked on what basis you find it to be true and have raised 6 issues which question the truth of what you believe:

1. Why is there no archeological evidence for the slaughter of the innocents under Herod?

2. Why is there no archeological evidence for a Pharoah dying in the Red Sea?

3. How can a just and loving god order the Hebrews to take slaves from the surrounding nations?

4. How can a just and loving god provide 2 different sets of rules for the treatment of slaves based on race, thus institutionalizing racism?

5. Why does a just and loving god order that all adulterers are to be stoned to death, abdicating the concept of the punishment must fit the crime?

6. How can an all knowing & all powerful god have the worse trait of humanity, being jealous?

You have only addressed one of the 6 issues, and for that one issue you have no archeological evidence, or any other evidence, to support what you have claimed. You have only given your opinion, which is not evidence. Why do you leave the other 5 issues unanswered? Is it because you have no answers? You have ignored some of these issues after having been asked about them three times now. If you are so absolutey and completely sure of the truth of what you believe, why do you continue dodging these issues? You make the claim that the entire Bible is true. I would think you would welcome the oppurtunity to prove it. Instead you do nothing but dodge a wonderful oppurtunity, which might end up converting others, once you have provided evidence of the truth of your beliefs. So where is the proof? Why are you not forthcoming with proof? - Nov 21 2003
So Linuster, answer the rest of the post please. You told me to get educated. I am waiting for you to educate me. Explain why there exists no archeological evidence for the slaughter of the innocents under Herod. Explain why there is no archeological evidence for an Egyptian Pharaoh dying in the middle of a parted Red Sea. - Nov 21 2003
Who has questioned Herod's existence? Who says Pharoah's didn't exist? I tell you what, point to one archeological example of the slaughter of the innocents, where Herod had all male children under the age of 2 killed, as is stated in the Jesus myth. Oh wait, there is none. Why is that? How is it that we have archeological evidence which proves the bubonic plague occurred in the middle ages. How is it that we have archeological evidence that proves Mt Vesuvius erupted in 79 AD and destroyed the city of Pompeii? But when Herod orders all male children killed, under the age of 2, the archeological record is completely silent to this disaster? Why is that? Why did NO ONE, not a SINGLE PERSON, write of a disaster of this scale? How did it go completely unnoticed by those who lived at that time?

Even better, point to one example in the archeological record which proves an Egyptian Pharoah was killed when the Red Sea was parted. Oh wait, you can't do that. No such evidence exists. The history of Egypt is extremely well documented, yet the archeological record is completely silent on the issue of a Pharoah dying in the middle of a parted sea. Why is that? All of Egypt just failed to notice one of their Pharoah's died when a sea was parted? How convenient.

Furthermore, why does your god, who claims to be just and loving, tell the Hebrews to take slaves from the nations that surround them? Why does your allegedly just god then proceed to give one set of laws for treatment of Hebrew slaves, and then issue an entirely different set of laws for non-Hebrew slaves, thus institutionalizing racism? How is this just? How is this loving? Why does your god order that all adulterer's were to be stoned to death, with his loving just self? Why does your just god have no concept of the punishment must fit the crime, when it comes to adultery? Please explain this.

Why does your god, who is supposedly all seeing and knowing, state that he is a jealous god in the ten commandments? Are we to believe that an all powerful & all knowing god is fatally flawed with one of the absolute worse character traits of humanity, such as jealousy? Please explain these things and provide evidence in the archeological record which proves the previously mentioned myths actually occurred. All of Kde-Look awaits the imminent imparting of your oh so grand and oh so factual and true knowledge on these issues. - Nov 21 2003
And the state of Georgia is mentioned in the book, "Gone With The Wind." Please note the fact that a real state is mentioned in a fictional story, does not mean the fictional story is true. - Nov 21 2003
I will answer your question, if and only if, you answer mine:

You say you believe it because it is true. Do you also take slaves from surrounding nations, as god tells you to in your Bible? Will you sell your daughters into slavery, as your god tells you to in your Bible? Do you stone adulterers, as god tells you to in your Bible? Must women not speak in your church, as Paul said, in your Bible? All of these things are taught to be moral by the God of your Bible. Do you base your life on these teachings as part of your religion or not? Yes or No? - Nov 21 2003
"archaelogy silenced the critics about King David of the Old testament really living"

According to who? What was the name of the archeologists who did this? Where did this information come from? Who is the author of this information? In what book did you find this? Oh that's right, you simply pulled this statement out of your behind, as you do on all of your wallpapers. How foolish of me to expect you to support a statement you make with facts. - Nov 21 2003
Provide a piece of historical or archeological evidence that Jesus existed. Oh that's right. You can't. There is none. There is much archeological and historical evidence for the existence of Lincoln or Washington, so we know for a fact they lived. - Nov 21 2003
Name three secular historians who verified this. No, wait, name just one. Oh wait, you can't do that either. You can not name a secular historian who saw these things because there were no eyewitnesses, were there? - Nov 21 2003
1. You can not prove a negative.
2. There are no non-bibical historical accounts, nor archeology, that proves the myth you believe is true. Go to the library. What section is the Bible found in? The history section? I think not, as the history contained in the Bible is wholly & completely inaccurate. So it is placed in the religion section, along with the other myths, where it belongs. Were the history contained in the Bible factual, you would find it in the history section.
3. You say you believe it because it is true. Do you also take slaves from surrounding nations, as god tells you to in your Bible? Will you sell your daughters into slavery, as your god tells you to in your Bible? Do you stone adulterers, as god tells you to in your Bible? Must women not speak in your church, as Paul said, in your Bible? That's right. I didn't think so. Now please find some other forum to spread your propoganda. - Nov 21 2003
True, that is why DNA tests can not be used as evidence in criminal cases. The test results are only opinions. Now I see why there is no such thing as facts. Thanks for your help. Before your post, I had no idea that facts did not exist. - Nov 20 2003
"The message of the cross is definitely offensive to those who are perishing."

DEAD WRONG! Passing off myth as fact is what is offensive. - Nov 20 2003
"There will be a final judgement!
Eveyone will participate, wheather they believe or not!"

Yeah see, our religious opinions are FACT, simply because we accept them as FACT. You are supposed to pretend along with us that they are FACT. Anyone who does not participate with us in the pretense that our religious opinions are FACTS, are simply being intolerant. Further, you should ignore Miss Manners completely, when she says to not offer your opinions, of any kind, unless asked.

And yes, there will be final judgement. You either worship the Ancient Bronze Age God of the Hebrew goat herders, or you end up in hell. Just like when the mafia says, you either pay us protection money or we break your mother's legs. God is so powerful these are the methods He has to resort to. - Nov 20 2003
darkswirl

Wallpaper Other 1 comment

Score 50.0%
Nov 14 2003
Absolutey Flawless!!! Can you please do more? - Nov 14 2003
Slavery

Wallpaper Other 27 comments

Score 50.0%
Oct 28 2003
True, Paul is not condoning slavery at all, nor did he condemn it. God does not condemn slavery, Jesus does not condemn slavery, not does Paul. Read the 10 commandments where we are told to give our slaves the Sabbath day off, and also told not to covet our neighbors' slaves. The Bible supports slavery throughout. Nowhere does the Bible condemn the practice of slavery, nor do any of its main characters condemn the practice. The right to own humans as property is supported throughout the Bible. Such are the morals of God, Jesus, Paul & the Bible. As God-fearing Christians, it is our duty to uphold ALL of the Bible, not just the parts we like. - Oct 28 2003
Of course they were set free, provided their masters did not beat them to death before the 7 years were up! - Oct 28 2003
Use whichever translation you prefer. There were many words for "slaves" used in the original Greek, Hewbrew and Aramaic of the texts. There is no getting around the fact that God supports slavery and repeats numerous times, throughout His Bible, telling the slaves to obey their masters. I did not write the texts, God did. As Christians, it is our duty to follow ALL of the Bible, not just the parts we like. - Oct 28 2003
"Slaves, obey your human masters with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ." (Ephesians 6:5)

Last I checked, Ephesians is in the New Testament, so we as Christians are allowed to keep slaves. God says so. It is in the Bible. - Oct 28 2003
Because it lets you know what is moral, such as how and when it is appropriate to buy slaves and keep them as your property. Just remember, once you have bought your slaves, in accordance with God's Will, be very careful how you choose to beat them, to insure you do not sin. Don't beat them hard enough to kill them on the same day. Instead, beat them only hard enough, so they do not die for the next day or two (Exodus 21:20-21). It is the moral thing to do and God clearly states in the Bible this is ok! - Oct 28 2003